Re: [-empyre-] free will and determinism

[Alan Sondheim <sondheim@panix.com>]

Not egotistic, egoistic, and based on the notion that the other universes
might well also exist etc. etc. but _this_ universe has developed to the
extent that consciousness recognizes it.

- Alan (think Frank Tipler's the author)


On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:

> An egotistic position if ever there was one.
>  But from our own evidence, the universe existed quite well before we came
> along.
> If so, either our brain evolved to a level of consciousness, or
> consciousness is a product of our brain. To me, the former is more elegant.
>
> -Joel
>
> >
> > Or perhaps a central product if one buys into the anthrocentric positions
> > - i.e. that our consciousness / awareness of _this_ universe is a
> > necessary precondition, that description is part of it. This buys into the
> > inflationary model - Alan
> >
> > On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:
> >
> > > Henry:
> > >
> > > I'd say that consciousness is not overlaid on top of particles, this
> doesn't
> > > make sense. But that what we call consciousness is an unintentional
> product
> > > of the quantum world. A "bi-product."
> > >
> > > -Joel
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > paper by Jaron Lanier:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/lanier03/lanier_index.html
> > > >
> > > > A quote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  Another way I approached the same question was to
> > > > say, if consciousness were missing from the universe,
> > > > how would things be different? A                range
> > > > of answers is possible. The first is that nothing
> > > > would be different, because consciousness wasn't there
> > > > in the first place. This would be Dan Dennett's
> > > > response (at least at that time), since he would get
> > > > rid of ontology entirely. The second answer is that
> > > > the whole universe would disappear because it needed
> > > > consciousness. That idea was characteristic of
> > > > followers of some of John Archibald Wheeler's earlier
> > > > work, who seemed to believe that consciousness plays a
> > > > role in keeping things afloat by taking the role of
> > > > the observer in certain quantum-scale interactions.
> > > > Another answer would be that the consciousness-free
> > > > universe would be similar but not identical, because
> > > > people would get a little duller. That would be the
> > > > approach of certain cognitive scientists, suggesting
> > > > that consciousness plays a specific, but limited
> > > > practical function in the brain.
> > > >
> > > >  And then there's another answer, which initially
> > > > might sound like Dennett's: that if consciousness were
> > > > not present, the trajectories of all
> > > > particles would remain identical. Every measurement
> > > > you could make in the universe would come out
> > > > identically. However, there would                be no
> > > > "gross", or everyday objects. There would be neither
> > > > apples nor houses, nor brains to perceive them.
> > > > Neither would there be words or thoughts, though the
> > > > electrons and chemical bonds that                would
> > > > otherwise comprise them would remain the just the same
> > > > as before. There would only be the particles that make
> > > > up everyday things, in exactly the same positions they
> > > > would otherwise occupy.                In other words,
> > > > consciousness is an ontology that is overlaid on top
> > > > of these particles. If there were no consciousness the
> > > > universe would be perfectly described as being nothing
> > > > but particles.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > empyre forum
> > > > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >
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> > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
> > >
> >
> > http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko
> > http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt
> > Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm
> > finger sondheim@panix.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > empyre forum
> > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
> > http://www.subtle.net/empyre
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko
http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt
Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm
finger sondheim@panix.com